Post by TripleSe7en on Sept 12, 2003 22:46:58 GMT -5
I can only speak about what I've read on blackpowder. Pyrodex is more consistent than the best selling Goex Black. With Goex, shooters are raising hell about the velocity/energy differences from can to can.
From what I hear, Elephant Black is alot weaker than Pyro & Swiss Black is even more potent than Triple Se7en.
I use Triple Se7en in all my MLs. The only complaints I have concern breechplug seizures in my inlines & nipple & clean-out screw seizures in my side-hammers. That little cleanout screw is a bugger to get grease on those itsy-bitsy threads without getting grease-droppings in the cleanout. I use a real thin straight screwdriver tip to administer the grease on the threads while I hold the little screw with needle-nose pliers with my other hand.
Sorry for all the rambling, but it's fresh in my mind because I shot my side-hammers yesterday with 777. The real trick is to loosen the cleanout screw & nipple right after your last shot at the range... while the barrel is still hot. But I hardly ever remember to do that unless I leave myself a note in my ml accessories tackle box.
Last Edit: Sept 12, 2003 22:53:45 GMT -5 by TripleSe7en
Real Black Powder is cheaper to shoot, more accurate, less corrosive, and there ain't nuthin like the real thing. I been shooting it for over 30 years & it has been & still is great. You talk to anyone that has been a serious ML shooter for any length of time, he will be shooting real BP. (I am not talking about the hunt one week deer hunters, I mean guys that shoot all the time)
You will hear argumants on cleanup ? Takes me a whole 15 minutes to completely clean a fullstock flintlock. Takes me that long to clean a centerfire rifle good.
If all I had was Pyrocrap to shoot, I would sell every BP rifle I have.
They say 777 is pretty good stuff, but have not tried it. If they ever get the price to where it is half way reasonable I may try it. I am not paying $20 a pound for it when I can get BP for $9 a pound delivered.
"If it Ain't a Smokin' & Stinkin', it is Merely an Imitation"
Post by roundball on Sept 18, 2003 20:24:50 GMT -5
I shot Pyrodex RS and P, loose and pellets, for years in a Knight MK85 inline and several different calibers of TC Hawken sidelock percussion rifles.
Pyrodex is more readily available but it's fairly expensive compared to the typical cost of BP, particularly if you like to shot a lot. In addition, it has a higher ignition temperature and can be a little harder to ignite compared to BP. (unless you're using a big modern, hot, shotgun shell primer which really steers the whole discussion of "muzzleloaders" off the table and out on a tangent).
I've expanded into flintlocks and due to the higher ignition temperatures of BP substitutes like Pyrodex, they are not suitable for use with flintlocks, so I settled on Goex.
To my surprise as an avid Pyrodex fan, Goex BP is less expensive, consistent, clean burning, extremely fast, and extremely accurate...in all of my rifles, both flintlock and percussion. (PS: there is a brand of BP called Elephant that has had some lot-to-lot performance differences but that is not the case with Goex.)
I've since rezeroed all my rifles using Goex instead of Pyrodex, and my leftover cans of Pyrodex have sat on the shelf gathering dust until just recently...got a .12ga double barrel percussion ML shotgun and I'm burning up all the leftover Pyrodex in it until it's gone.
In spite of the marketing hype that 'implies' a simplistic cleaning regimen with the BP substitutes, take it to the bank that no matter what type of BP or BP substitute is used in a muzzleloader, all of them leave corrosive residues that must be thoroughly cleaned from every nook and cranny of the firearm very soom after using either of them or corrosion will absolutely follow.
Recreational shooting / hunting is my primary hobby year round and I wouldn't waste my time with a marginal or inferior product...I've used both types of powder in all three types of rifles since the late 80's, shooting or hunting them year round in heat, humidity, cold, rain, etc. Once I learned about real BP, and from what supply house to order it delivered to my door for $9/Lb and tried it, I've now switched to it 100%.
BP substitutes offer an attraction to the occasional shooter who buys a lb at Walmart and it lasts for a few years, but if you like to shoot a lot, and ever try a real good quality BP like Goex, IMHO, you'll wish you'd switched to it years ago.
Post by propredator on Sept 21, 2003 21:24:08 GMT -5
It was just a rummor i heard from someone,the 5# i bought were out of a newer lot which was supposed to be better,another rummor. The fouling was much worse than the can that was 7or 8 months older.I couldnot seem to get the same groups out of the newer stuff and i didnt see any of them red beads in the fouling that i did on the older stuff. If there going to be this inconsistant from lot to lot im gonna use something else. I could shoot it and take the time to work with it but im not going to.The 777 shot better groups in my side lock and the modern gun,uses less powder and is more accurate than even the older lot. If any one around here ever starts stocking in the swiss powder i will be trying it,but untill then im gonna try the 777 out for a spell. It was warm out side when i tried both the goex and the 777 out,maybe the goex will perform better with fouling when humditiy is lower?: Maybe it will be worse,dont know.Right now its too close to hunting season to start changing now.Have both rifles ready to go and sighted in,just have to do a little fine tuning some cool morning.
I shoot alot of powder. All of it is black. I have tried several brand including Goex, Elephant, Swiss, Wano and Schutzen. Each one is slightly diffrent in cost and performance. I have found that all of them will shoot well as soon as you adjust the powder charge to make the velocity of the round ball or bullet the same from one powder to the other.
If you go up and down the line at Friendship, you will find all brands are being used by a lot of Champions and Record holders. I have never seen a Champion use Pyrodex. I have tried it once when the manufacture brought some to the National Championships. I found it very difficult to clean out of my Heavy Bench rifle. I was not the only one who had that problem. The Pyrodex never showed up with free samples again.
I have run Goex, Wano and Shutzen through my Slug Gun and foud that they all would group the same if I measured and weighd the powder correctly. I can also tell you that I have several times reached a mean dev. of 6fps in 10 shot groups. I have a hard time doing that with non black powder reloads.
The red "fouling" that I get seems to come and go depending on the conditions. This is melted sulpher and does not cause any problems.
Cleaning my rifles is a snap. It does not matter if it is a bench rifle, slug gun, pistol, flint lock or percussion. It is just a matter of using the right proceedures.
I will tell you that the winners of the last 3 or 4 manufactures match, the Knight Rifle team, use TripleF. I have never seen them use it in any other competition. One of the team members does use it for hunting.
It is not uncommon for someone like myself to shoot 35 to 50 lbs. of black a year in competition.
I can shoot all of my muzzleloaders all afternoon using Pyrodex without having to clean between shots! Have to wipe bore after every shot with B.P.!! In my guns, GOEX FFg may be slightly more accurate than Pyrodex, but, except for target competitions, not enough so to make any real difference.
Pyrodex is MUCH harder to ignite than black, and if you use it in a flintlock, you have to put 10 grains or so (three "squirts" from your pan primer) into the bore before the main Pyrodex charge. In a caplock, I have found that CCI Magnum #11 caps used with Uncle Mike's Hotshot nipples prevents hangfires/misfires in all my guns when using Pyrodex.
Pyrodex fouling is as hygroscopic/corrosive, if not more so, than BP fouling. But if you clean with boiling water like I do, neither BP or Pyrodex presents any real cleaning problems!
"It seems very difficult to impress most reloaders with the fact that every rifle is an individual, and what proves to be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice versa." Bob Hagel, GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, 1977
I can shoot all of my muzzleloaders all afternoon using Pyrodex without having to clean between shots! Have to wipe bore after every shot with B.P.!!
So can I and that's why I use pyrodex. I was patterning my sidelock 12ga. for spring gobbler hunting and using black pwdr. I would begin to have misfires after about 5 shots....using pyro. it was closer to 10shots.
Post by stumpjumper on Jun 10, 2004 17:44:02 GMT -5
I am a Goex man. I shoot mostly flintlocks, & using pyrodex, espeicaly those pre measured dohickys, I begin to have alot of miss fires. The pyro is good stuff if I am using an in-line or certant ones of my cap locks. I found that when I'm using one of my double bblcaplock muzzy shotguns or my Hatfield .50 cal. or the T/C Hawkin .50 cal., both flintlocks, the pyro has a hard time gettin my spark through the vent from the pan. I geuss it has to do with it not generating enough spark that I will get from one of my 209 primers. I could open the vent so, but then I am risking lettin to much of the gases to escape, & blowing back at my face.
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