I have not seen any original New England guns, which TC offereing is similar to those? and is the similarity by design or chance like the 1/48 twist they chose for the barrels of the Hawkin, The underhammers are definitely a type from the late percussion period,but they have never caught on that well with the public, and once again the main components are a factor that need be considered, you can take an original Hawken and put a Weaver scope on it and shoot a modern pistol bullet with sabot and it would be a stretch to call it a "traditional" outfit, I wish that someone would offer more of the original adjustable sights, peeps and bullets from the pre-1840 period so those who choose that path could do it in period fashion
I think an interview with Mr. C of TC back in '77 says it pretty well, they were making a gun for the hunter, they chose a 28" barrel because they could not imagine going through the woods with a 42" long barrel. They chose the shallow 1/48 twist becaude it did better with their Maxi ball but would still give fair groups with the RB, and they tried many original conical molds and found none that would give acceptable groups,so they designed their own, the adjustable sights could be removed and a Puma pistol scope would mount in the same holes, the modern adjustable type were also more familiar(easier to adjust)to shooters used to centerfire guns, It was also mentioned that the coil springs were used because flat springs wouild not last ten minutes, generaly speaking most manufactures tried to make the sights and projectiles as efficient and user friendly as anything of modern design that was available. I doubt that there would be much of a market for original style adjustable sights and conicals due to the fact that they do not meet the ease and efficiency of the modern offerings but it would be nice if there were some for those who would like to take the traditional path in the way of sights and bullets.
Sidehammer gun like a Hawken or longrifle. Trouble with some blackpowder folks is they are too dang exclusionary. If you want to run an original hog rifle that was at the Battle of New Orleans, fine by me, but no need to be a "traditional pompous ass". I think if one stood up a hawken and a Savage side by side, a child could point to the hawken and say,"that's an ole timey one".
Post by Ridgerunner on Aug 9, 2003 21:03:27 GMT -5
Buster, there is no need to be a "pompous ass" in the other direction either. The traditional shooters take pride in their traditional gear and take pains to make it so. And they know their guns to. It tickles me every time a group of traditional shooters are challenged to a shooting match by the inline crowd especially when the traditional group beat the socks off the inline bunch which are using scopes. This just goes to show who "knows their guns". I wonder who ends up feeling like a "pompous ass" when this happens. ;D
You mentioned that a child could tell the difference between a Savage and a Hawken...this is true enough, but some kids have more common sense than some grown ups to.
Post by propredator on Aug 28, 2003 17:27:12 GMT -5
This is an intresten topic.I dont have nuthin of any value to add,think all of you have covered it pretty darn well. All i know is i have a 4 month old 54 gpr that im itchen to shoot some whitetails with if late muzzle loader season ever gets here. im going to use a different type of muzzle loader during shotgun season,but i may sneek out with the gpr too if i take the notion to. ;D
Post by wouldchuck on Oct 13, 2003 21:33:38 GMT -5
Ya know? There are as many answers to this question as there are people to answer it.
The word "Traditional" covers a vast area and can mean something different to everybody.
I have a .54 cal. Cabela's Hawkin on which I put a TC tang peep sight. Is that "traditional"? For me it's close enough. But I'm sure it would raise a few eyebrows - and maybe a few hackles - if I was to bring it to one of the rondezvous in my area. I don't care, I like it. It still has the look and feel of the real thing and it still puts out a lot of smoke when it goes BOOM!.
Does the fact that I shoot a side hammer make me superior to the guys that shoot those in-lines? Darn right it does! ;D ;D But I aint gonna hold it against them.
I feel that if someone views paintings of past times; and reads articles with discriptive passages of past historical time periods; and is able to attend modern day celebrations of those times and events; Then in that persons minds eye, they know what is truly representative of the event and period being portrayed. they realize that short stocked Hawken rifle does not belong at Ft Neccessity, Bushey Run or any F&I or Rev War event. A full stock Hawken could be acceptable at a late Rev War or whiskey Rebellion event. To explain what I mean, I've copied and pasted the following from 'Hawken History' on the pages of the web site of the Hawken Shop at: www.thehawkenshop.com/history.htm
Line of the Hawken family: 1. Carl J. Hawken - born 1914, son of 2. William C. Hawken - born 1875, died 1951, son of 3. John Hawken - born 1839, died 1923, son of 4. MO. 1850's, died & buried here, son of 5 John Hawken - born 1784, died 1821. Rifle maker at Harpers Ferry, VA, second son of 6. Christain, Hawken (Hacken) - born 1756, died 1821. Rifle maker Hagerstown Maryland, son of 7. Niclaus Hacken - born 1718. died 1758. Rifle maker at Bern Switzerland. My records show that Niclaus & 2 brothers. Christain & Woefgang came to America from Switzerland and lived in York County. PA. I think that Woefgang was also a rifle maker and probably all three of them. They came to America in 1750. The Boats name was Sandwich. They sailed from Rotterdam. They arrived at Philadelphia PA., November 30, 1750. The Captain of the ship (Sandwich) was captain Hazelwood from Rotterdam, with 200 passengers on board. It didn't say how long the trip took. The record shows that they left a lot of relatives in Switzerland, but I won't try to list all of them, but the records I have go back to a Niklaust (Hacken) Hawken, born 1565 at Rueggisberg, Bern Switzerland, so the family was of Swiss decent. My great great grandfather, John, born 1784, was an older brother of Jake & Samuel Hawken, the St. Louis Rifle Makers. Signed Carl J. Hawken
This is just a small part of the history of this gun making family line. THIS is what Traditional means. Wanting to know more about historical correct information to make us better appreciate and understand what WE are all about.
Last Edit: Apr 21, 2004 16:10:27 GMT -5 by MadJack
*A hunter never apologizes to his prey;He just thanks it for the contest. *I started hunting when I was a youngster. YES, I saw "Bambi", but I got over it. Those who can- Do; Those who can't- Talk about it!
Post by stumpjumper on Jun 21, 2004 17:48:52 GMT -5
MadJack. That is a good way to express Traditional. I for one believe in what a person feels the most comfortable with, is a more traditianal weapon then any with a name backing it. I personaly have a fondness for Flintlock frontstuffers. But that doesn't make me a better or less thought of person.
. My all time favorite would have to be my ol' Hatfield Rifle. The serial # is in the 30's. Yup, only 2 didgites in the serial #. But an inline can also fall in the Traditional catagory also. The first in-line was made in the later part of 1600's to 1700's. It was outta either France or Germany, I can't remember off hand. Shoot, that means that the in-line was out before the percusion was even thought of & around the time of the last days of the less reliable Wheel & Match locks. The first in-line utilized a flint in the breech that was inclosed. It was definitly more superior then the Wheel, & match locks. But the external flintlock proved more reliable.
Now my Hatfield Flinter is a truer form of traditional over my T/C Hawken flintlock. The T/C has a modern adjustable rear site, where the Hatfield sports an original rear full buckhorn. It is a work of art. Plus the ol' Hatfield has a nice brown to it, & not a blue as the T/C. The bluing / blacking is a more up to date method, where the ol' timer guns were Browned.
Now my true feelings on this subject is, it just doesn't matter what anouther person feels comfortable with, as long as he/she enjoys the shootin tradition & keeping our freedom of guns alive. That to me is a true traditionalist. Not a wheellock vs. Savage smokless. Just shoot what it is you like, & feel secure with, cause only in America do you have such a tradition. We need to stick together no matter what it is we shoot,cause I'm not in the habit of giving those gun grabbing bunny grubers are tring to take from us.
Buster. I'm not to sure I understand what you are getting at, about a kid could tell the differance between the two differant types of frontstuffers.
I hope nobody will take what I say as the final word on a subject that comes up all too often among traditional muzzleloader shooters but traditional usually means that we try to get our hands on (or build) a weapon that represents a particular historical time period. The kicker is that you can never say that the old time gunsmiths always did things this way or that way...there are many variables to deal with. The best way to decide what is traditional is to do alot of research on the time period that you're interested in. This might not be much help but "traditional" covers alot of ground.
well hello all im new here and see a couple familure faces , hello Rb and TG and I guess this is the best place for me to place my first post IMO traditional is any weapon that is a reproduction of an original muzzle loading weapon . This includes inline ignitions of the late 1700 and 1800 when being built as a replica of an original piece Using original designed firing mechanisms and stocks . I believe that PRB and history based conical are fine as long as they are used with lose powder , in a flintlock or percussion with a #10 or 11 cap .
For the guys my age and older that have problems with seeing the sights , might I suggest taking your rifle to a good gun smith or better to a black powder gun smith with experience . They can move those old iron sights for you so you can see them . Stock locations are just starting points and many times as we get older our eyes change so much that they have to be moved . This is nothing new to our day and age and many companies like TOW ,DGW and Pecatoncia river sell different sight of different sizes for different rifle and folks with our problem .
Im a big believer in the patch round ball and have taken most all north American game with it excluding caribou and grizz and feel it is more then adequate when used within its limits . That being said I do use a conical of CW design when hunting Bull elk an moose for a bigger thump .. Traditional weapons come in many shapes and forms , most all of us know what they look like and how they work
I might be a romantic, but, what brings me joy is sitting in the woods when the sun rizes and all that my eyes can see, my gun, clothes and knive ect. allows me to imagine myself back 300 years in time. Not to mention the chance of meat for the table.
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